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TI3 PBF Game - Asymmetric preset galaxy

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Re: TI3 PBF Game - Asymmetric preset galaxy

Postby TunaDude » November 20th, 2011, 1:17 am

Muaat is going to be tough to beat that's for sure
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Re: TI3 PBF Game - Asymmetric preset galaxy

Postby shaunm » November 20th, 2011, 8:15 am

Guys, we have a problem here. Aruze passed me the TGs without informing me ahead of time. I had no chance to deny him the offer as I knew Winnu had the Monetary Concession. Obviously I would never ever have accepted those 8 TG. I think we should roll back before Winnu's turn.
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Re: TI3 PBF Game - Asymmetric preset galaxy

Postby shaunm » November 20th, 2011, 8:23 am

On a more general note: How does everyone feel about this game? I find the whole thing somewhat weird. Let's be honest, we can continue fighting for victory as Muaat and Winnu but I must say it just feels strange. The way things have developed would never have happened naturally had I been playing Muaat from the beginning and now the Winnu-Muaat(-Yin?) war to me just feels "artificial".
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Re: TI3 PBF Game - Asymmetric preset galaxy

Postby AbsoluteZero » November 20th, 2011, 9:17 am

Well the whole thing is a mess. You started playing for Muaat saying you would abide by his agreements, so I didn't take what you got from trade. We didn't roll back for that when you changed your mind...

What war are you talking about? There was no war. You picked a fight by activating Zohbat. Yin is still neutral as far as I know.

I was pretty excited to see how this was going to end. The game was about who could posture the best to hold the artifacts next round.

But the game is a bit of a mess. We could call it quits if everyone wants to.
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Re: TI3 PBF Game - Asymmetric preset galaxy

Postby TunaDude » November 20th, 2011, 9:25 am

Well I guess everyone probably knows I'm apathetic about this game so I don't mind if it gets called off! I would like to GM a game with all you guys in it though, how about trying something different and play the Fall of the Empire scenario?
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Re: TI3 PBF Game - Asymmetric preset galaxy

Postby Zilfalon » November 20th, 2011, 9:40 am

I dont care either way.

I think the first Game I'll be playing again over Vassal, is when it supports shaun and my way of playing the game. But not sure if I want to wait that long :D

Whatever you decide is fine by me.
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Re: TI3 PBF Game - Asymmetric preset galaxy

Postby Aruze » November 20th, 2011, 1:03 pm

so winnu wins and we start a new game?
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Re: TI3 PBF Game - Asymmetric preset galaxy

Postby shaunm » November 20th, 2011, 4:38 pm

@AbsoluteZero

I thought you agreed to have me play with Qui-Gon's previous agreements all cancelled, as it would have been somewhat difficult to correctly reconstruct them. I "picked a fight" because otherwise it would be a very, very simple and obvious win for you. Still probably will/would be.

I'll gladly participate in a new game if TunaDude volunteers to GM, but only with an asymmetric setup and home system bidding.
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Re: TI3 PBF Game - Asymmetric preset galaxy

Postby Aruze » November 20th, 2011, 5:37 pm

the asymmetric setup kind of ruined it for me, you need to have your sector of influance.

having many races fight over only a handful of planets is just annoying and disfunctional.

if i would ever play an asymmetric setup again i would need it to be played in the Enlarged galaxy and have at the minimum a 2 system length between home systems and some with red systems between them.
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Re: TI3 PBF Game - Asymmetric preset galaxy

Postby Zilfalon » November 20th, 2011, 8:00 pm

Aruze, you got that wrong ;)

If you count the planets you'll se that they are the same amount as when you play with the official setup. We like it because there is no strict line of influence. You need to arrange yourself with the players. We didnt like the fact that someone across the board tells you to do something about your neighbour because he can win. And why does he tell you? Because he cant to shit against someone across the board.

I also want to remind you again of the Home System Bidding System. If you didnt like that system, why did you take it? ;-)
"What is that System worth to you?"

But okay, if you say, you need your strict line of influence. Go ahead, but I wont follow. :)
It just is not so much fun for me. I understand that it has a certain amount of appeal to it, having YOUR Empire. But in my opinion you have no player interaction in the first turn and maybe not even on the second, and the first time you start wondering what the others might do, is maybe round 2 or 3. But on the asymetric you need to watch everyone from the very beginning.

What I also see is that we have all a different style of playing. From what I have seen some of you play aggressively, which is fine, but in our opinion doesnt support you in getting any VPs. I never would have expected your move in the first rund, aruze. Placing a Destroyer totally busted my game. You lost a Destr. and a CC and I an entire round, and you totally kicked me out of the game. It was a nice move I must admit for maiming me. But it didnt win you anything in the end.

I heard over shaun that in JPs experience from the symetric setups, having eliminated a player from the game is very common. To that I only say: WOW. That doesnt only cost a lot of reccourses, CCs, also a lot of time. Going so far to do that. I am impressed if you still can win the game. In our Asymmetric we sometimes even have players start off next to each other and they dont do that, because they start being friends from the start. We dont see the point in elimination...One attacks the other, he sacrifices Material, the other gets elminiated eventually and someone else will win, because he was paying attention into getting VPs.

Anyhow, that is just our opinion of the game and also our way of playing. But having seen you playing, it just speak FOR TI3 in being a great game, in which a lot of people have different strategies and different playstyles.

I also dont think I want to try a Symetric Game anymore with any TDS Counter or FF Counter. That System really had me bad in both games. We didnt become friends :D

Anyhow, our FtF Game is not only in the Style and setup different, also in the Objective Card System. As soon as we have some of our stuff in the Vassal Module and its playable the way we play the game and enjoy it, we will make a big thread about it, explaining it and making a rules Document, so everyone (and I know there may be ppl who also enjoy our way of playing) can try it out and review our style. We also will offer Vassal Games by shaun, me or maybe someone else who tried it out, too, provided it will get made playable in Vassal.

This all might sound that we change much, but we tried to evolve it for us into "less random" to "more strategy". And I think we finally found a good standard that we play with. And the one big part with the setup, you already know now. There is just that Objective System, since there were some complains about it in the group, we sat together to figure out how to change it.

Greets
Zil
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Re: TI3 PBF Game - Asymmetric preset galaxy

Postby Aruze » November 20th, 2011, 8:19 pm

when do we start a new game?
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Re: TI3 PBF Game - Asymmetric preset galaxy

Postby AbsoluteZero » November 20th, 2011, 11:38 pm

In response to Zil's post, we obviously have different styles of play.

I also do not like the concept of a strict line of influence. But there are other ways to generate a map that can create the same thing. What about RAW home world placement, but don't let the strongest planets touch a home world?

The problem I have with a galaxy like this is the home world proximity. If you were to make sure with special systems that no home worlds were too close I would try this again. But if I'm close to my neighbor I'm very likely to attack at the first sign of weakness.

I heard over shaun that in JPs experience from the symetric setups, having eliminated a player from the game is very common. To that I only say: WOW. That doesnt only cost a lot of reccourses, CCs, also a lot of time. Going so far to do that. I am impressed if you still can win the game. In our Asymmetric we sometimes even have players start off next to each other and they dont do that, because they start being friends from the start. We dont see the point in elimination...One attacks the other, he sacrifices Material, the other gets elminiated eventually and someone else will win, because he was paying attention into getting VPs.

You can play aggressively and still claim objectives. A large number of objectives require combat. Further, the vast majority of objectives require resources. Resources come from planets. In general terms, more planets means it is easier to complete objectives. Further, your neighbor having less planets means he has a harder time completing objectives. So if he is militarily weak and has nothing else to leverage, why not take his planets?
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Re: TI3 PBF Game - Asymmetric preset galaxy

Postby Zilfalon » November 21st, 2011, 12:17 am

Thats why we try to keep the number of resources as even as humanly possible. And yes, a lot of objectives are about combat, but how do you know there will be combat Objectives? That is one thing we also went against in making Objectives "open" to see. But about that, I will post later a Rules Handout of our current house rules. Then you can check out what we mean. And I am also interested what house rules you use, since we tried to play it here as offical as possible ;)

I see your point, and it is also reasonable to attack someone by a sign of weakness. Thats what you need to be cautious at, at all times and plan ahead like:"can I afford to move those troups away? Will he attack me?" and then diplomacy starts again.

Its rare that two HS are next to each other, we have that roughly once in 5 games. But then again, dont choose the system next to someone. Bid for something else if you are the weaker one in the beginning. And to go for VPs you need to work together up to one point when it will not work anymore. AND THEN, really, be prepared :D
Usually our HS are 3-4 Tiles away from each other. That is what mostly happens in our setup, even with wormholes. So it is not closer than in the official setup.
Also before starting the game, we check that resources are evenly distributed and special Systems also. A little evening out is a must usually. One may have a 3/1 or 3/0 and some others may have a 2/1 and a 1/0 in one System. Also Systems with more planets may be better for some races than for others. Bid for the System what you need for your race ( and for the objectives, since we know in our games what is coming).

Yes why not take his planets? of course, you need to defend your territory, but going for someones planets, might also make you open from the other side. Dont let your guard down!

In our games playing aggressivly in the most part didnt work for winning. Some still manage to claim objectives but never were in question for the win. But maybe we are not good enough :D But you also didnt say the one who fights, wins the game, did you? ;)

I personally never played on a symetric map before, but judging from the one here on vassal, I am not really touched. I am also glad that you tried out the Asmmetric to see for yourself. Thank you also for your thoughts on this, to give some knew aspects we might have not thought of so far.
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Re: TI3 PBF Game - Asymmetric preset galaxy

Postby Aruze » November 21st, 2011, 12:27 am

can we start a new game please?
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Re: TI3 PBF Game - Asymmetric preset galaxy

Postby jpsuchecki » November 21st, 2011, 1:07 am

Ok so a lot of wording on this, but shaun's call. Are you starting a new game or not?
GM Lost Worlds (Wiki), TI3 Anyone, Small Worlds, Last Stand (Vassal)
Mentak TI3 Anyone (Vassal) 2ndish
N'orr Zero-1 (Vassal) In progress
Hacan Redemption (Wiki) Ended
Yin Asymmetric Galaxy (Vassal) Ended
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