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MMP and Vassal?

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MMP and Vassal?

Postby pfglenn » March 30th, 2009, 1:55 pm

Over on CSW, there's been some discussion of MMP and Vassalp--MMP has announced that there won't be future Vassal mods for MMP games. It's not clear if this means that the company won't allow any mods, or just that it won't officially create and/or endorse them. It's also not clear what this means for mods that already exist.

MMP has said that there is something is coming in the future that will apparently replace Vassal in some way, but it's not clear what that means. In fact, MMP's comments so far have been rather uninformative. Anyone know what's going on? I sure hope it doesn't mean that all MMP mods will be yanked.
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Postby pfglenn » March 30th, 2009, 2:06 pm

Okay, I just saw that this morning MMP said that they're continuing with things as they are for now--so new mods will come out--but in the future there will be a change. I wonder what they'll be doing.
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MMP and Vassal?

Postby uckelman » March 30th, 2009, 2:18 pm

Thus spake "pfglenn":
Okay, I just saw that this morning MMP said that they're continuing with thin
gs as they are for now--so new mods will come out--but in the future there wi
ll be a change. I wonder what they'll be doing.


You're not the only one wondering what they're planning.

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MMP and Vassal?

Postby mkiefte » March 30th, 2009, 2:24 pm

If I had to guess, I would say they're planning something commercial.  There's a lot of grumbling among game publishers about the free availability of free game modules. 

- M.

2009/3/30 Joel Uckelman <uckelman@nomic.net (uckelman@nomic.net)>
Thus spake "pfglenn":
Okay, I just saw that this morning MMP said that they're continuing with thin
gs as they are for now--so new mods will come out--but in the future there wi
ll be a change. I wonder what they'll be doing.



You're not the only one wondering what they're planning.


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MMP and Vassal?

Postby Tim M » March 30th, 2009, 2:57 pm

I would think the former myself also. With that in mind I dont see how it is viable - witness Matrix Games, a professional war game company in the electronic medium with their current progress/track record of producing an electronic version of one of the L'n'L boardgame series. 2 years ongoing and still nothing out the door yet for consumer purchase.
If it takes 2+ years to do one game (which is more than normal for commercial game software) I fail to see how MMP will be able to do this for all their products and keep up / current, what with the pre order system where users vote with their wallets on what they should produce. This gives Curt's software venture no semblance of time to have the electronic product ready when the board product is within a reasonable time frame.

As to latter, I really wish Bruce would join the Vassal project instead of going it alone a he has done. His work is excellent in rules handling. He could contribute a lot here to enable this sort of stuff as a sandbox type feature for Vassal where designers could then go define the rules for their specific mod. I've tried to coax him with collaboration before but he was concerned with his IP rights and of course Vassal is open source - an obstacle I wouldn't be able to bridge or allay his concerns I decided so let it go instead of pursuing.
Its a shame because the 2 together combined would produce the penultimate electronic board version for users imo


From: Jeffrey Brent McBeth <mcbeth@broggs.org>
To: VASSAL Engine Forums Mailing List <messages@forums.vassalengine.org>
Sent: Monday, March 30, 2009 9:31:04 AM
Subject: Re: [General Discussion]Re: MMP and Vassal?

On Mon, Mar 30, 2009 at 11:24:48AM -0300, Michael Kiefte wrote:
If I had to guess, I would say they're planning something commercial.
There's a lot of grumbling among game publishers about the free availability
of free game modules.

The hints seem to me to point pretty strongly at Curt's video game
venture working something out. Or, maybe someone is finally going to
give Bruce Wigdor the money he so richly deserves.

Jeff

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Problems? post your OS, Physical Mem, version of Vassal and Java plus the Module in question.
No developer can help with out that info, thx!
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MMP and Vassal?

Postby uckelman » March 30th, 2009, 3:13 pm

Thus spake Timothy Mccarron:
I would think the former myself also. With that in mind I dont see how
it is viable - witness Matrix Games, a professional war game company in
the electronic medium with their current progress/track record of
producing an electronic version of one of the L'n'L boardgame series. 2
years ongoing and still nothing out the door yet for consumer purchase.
If it takes 2+ years to do one game (which is more than normal for
commercial game software) I fail to see how MMP will be able to do this
for all their products and keep up / current, what with the pre order
system where users vote with their wallets on what they should produce.
This gives Curt's software venture no semblance of time to have the
electronic product ready when the board product is within a reasonable
time frame.

Yeah, I don't see it either. If that's the route the want to go, they're
free to try, I guess.

As to latter, I really wish Bruce would join the Vassal project instead
of going it alone a he has done. His work is excellent in rules
handling. He could contribute a lot here to enable this sort of stuff
as a sandbox type feature for Vassal where designers could then go
define the rules for their specific mod. I've tried to coax him with
collaboration before but he was concerned with his IP rights and of
course Vassal is open source - an obstacle I wouldn't be able to bridge
or allay his concerns I decided so let it go instead of pursuing.
Its a shame because the 2 together combined would produce
the penultimate electronic board version for users imo

Being open-source is not inconsistent with maintaining IP rights. If he
wanted to contribute, he'd still be the copyright owner for all of his
contributions. Licensing under the LGPL or GPL is is licensing, not
transfer of ownership. If what he's actually worried about is letting
other people see his secret sauce, well, that's another matter.

We'd certainly welcome another programmer.

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MMP and Vassal?

Postby Tim M » March 30th, 2009, 3:20 pm

By my reckoning, honestly I don't know but we should leave room for it to come about just in case :). I would think 20-30 years from now there might be some tool around that makes what we use now seem very primitive and I should (hopefully) still be around to see it, if that does occur :)

From: Jeffrey Brent McBeth <mcbeth@broggs.org>
To: VASSAL Engine Forums Mailing List <messages@forums.vassalengine.org>
Sent: Monday, March 30, 2009 10:01:57 AM
Subject: Re: [General Discussion]Re: MMP and Vassal?

On Mon, Mar 30, 2009 at 07:57:10AM -0700, Timothy Mccarron wrote:
Its a shame because the 2 together combined would produce
the penultimate electronic board version for users imo

So, you've piqued my curiosity. If VASSAL+Wargameroom is the
penultimate VTT, what is the ultimate?

Jeff

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MMP and Vassal?

Postby uckelman » March 30th, 2009, 3:23 pm

Thus spake Timothy Mccarron:
By my reckoning, honestly I don't know but we should leave room for it
to come about just in case :). I would think 20-30 years from now
there might be some tool around that makes what we use now seem very
primitive and I should (hopefully) still be around to see it, if that
does occur :)


If you want to see primitive, check out VASSAL 2.9.9 if you haven't looked
at it in a while. :)

If we keep making progress at the rate we are now, we should be around for
a very long time.

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MMP and Vassal?

Postby Brent Easton » March 30th, 2009, 9:00 pm

Okay, I just saw that this morning MMP said that they're continuing with
things as they are for now--so new mods will come out--but in the future
there will be a change. I wonder what they'll be doing.

Could someone please provide a link to this discussion for me?

Thanks,
B.



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MMP and Vassal?

Postby uckelman » March 30th, 2009, 9:14 pm

Thus spake "Brent Easton":
Okay, I just saw that this morning MMP said that they're continuing with
things as they are for now--so new mods will come out--but in the future
there will be a change. I wonder what they'll be doing.

Could someone please provide a link to this discussion for me?

Thanks,
B.

The initial part of the discussion is in the SCS folder, running from 9921
to 9925:

http://talk.consimworld.com/WebX?14@485 ... b46d/10238

The discussion (in the MMP folder) starts sy 67225 and runs to the present:

http://talk.consimworld.com/WebX?14@485 ... d502/69837

(BTW, Jon Gautier is a troll, so you can ignore anything he says.)

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MMP and Vassal?

Postby mkiefte » March 30th, 2009, 10:44 pm

I'm none the wiser. There's nothing more entertaining than reading a lot of opinionated posts from people who have no clue about what's going on.

I'm not sure I care about this debate in the sense that I don't really have any sympathy for companies that won't support VASSAL.  I do wish we had more people on the inside.

(BTW, Jon Gautier is a troll, so you can ignore anything he says.)

I had a good chuckle.

- M.

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MMP and Vassal?

Postby generalsirarthurcurrie » March 31st, 2009, 6:32 am

I'd been meaning to post a question as to why GB2 is not available as a Vassal module. Now I wonder if it's a permission issue. Or is it what I suspected before and just the size of the file and the length of time such a project would take?

I own a copy of the OCS games I play on Vassal. But playing the paper and cardboard game is not practical and FTF play is not available where I live. Yet MMP has every right to protect its copyright as well. Could Vassal build in some sort of registration system as a proof of purchase if a game company required it?

Anyway, does anyone know if a GB2 module is in the works? My copy sits unpunched and unplayed in the closet.[/list]
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MMP and Vassal?

Postby uckelman » March 31st, 2009, 10:09 am

Thus spake "generalsirarthurcurrie":
I'd been meaning to post a question as to why GB2 is not available as a Vassa
l module. Now I wonder if it's a permission issue. Or is it what I suspected
before and just the size of the file and the length of time such a project wo
uld take?

I think the answer in this case is that nobody's done it yet. (You might
prod Ben to have a go at it. He made the Case Blue module.) I'd like to
play my copy of GB2 someday, as well.

I own a copy of the OCS games I play on Vassal. But playing the paper and car
dboard game is not practical and FTF play is not available where I live. Yet
MMP has every right to protect its copyright as well. Could Vassal build in s
ome sort of registration system as a proof of purchase if a game company requ
ired it?

Possibly. Nobody's ever approached us about it before, so far as I know.

--
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MMP and Vassal?

Postby Brent Easton » March 31st, 2009, 10:54 am

I own a copy of the OCS games I play on Vassal. But playing the paper and car
dboard game is not practical and FTF play is not available where I live. Yet
MMP has every right to protect its copyright as well. Could Vassal build in s
ome sort of registration system as a proof of purchase if a game company requ
ired it?

Possibly. Nobody's ever approached us about it before, so far as I know.

This already exists. It's used in the Dan Versson games.


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Postby jmlima » April 4th, 2009, 11:57 am

Ah well... there's a reason why I do not buy Avalanche Press games, now there is a reason why I won't be buying any MMP games. Great thing I did not pre-order Baltic Gap...

I'll also be sending a mail to GMT , just to be sure they continue to support VASSAL online gaming... Good thing they make great games.
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