Roadmap for VASSAL 4

As Vassal is written in Java, Vassal ties itself to the Java platform, which depends on… the JVM (Java platform). I’m very curious about the limitations you see towards the things I describe. As I see GWT as a few things, I also see GWT as a GUI library. From that perspective, It would not be limiting, but just another option to perform the GUI implementation with.

To build further on the Robber code example links I posted: I have an SvgRobber, but as well I can make a CanvasRobber or Canvas3DRobber. All XxxRobber classes implement RobberVisual and subscribe to the MovedEvent to change their [x,y] location. The Robber behaviour and data is seperated into a Robber class, and abstractly defined in RobberVisual interface and implemented in SvgRobber class (or the future CanvasRobber class).

See for RobberSvg: github.com/generateui/OpenSettl … erSvg.java

If you explicitly do not support IE, you can have most cake and eat it too.

Exactly. That’s why GWT worked out for OpenSettlers so well. No dynamic typing, good IDE support, and improved capabilities for the UI (such as canvas, canvas3d (WebGL), html and SVG).

I’m not sure if you’re replying on me, or a previous post. I only talked about C with Pioneers as example, so I assume you’re not replying with above quote to my post.

The point of Uckelman is to decouple classes currently tightly coupled to SWT from the UI toolkit, seperate UI classes from other classes. When that’s done, it does not really matter what UI toolkit one uses. OpenSettlers uses currently 2: an external SVG library, and the GWT widgets. As the architecture of OpenSettlers explicitly supports this using interfaces (loosely coupled design), I can make widgets in SWT, GWT, JavaFX, Canvas, SVG, whatever I like. The question indeed would be what UI library Vassal would support officially, which I should not answer as I am not part of Vassal.

Your last sentence make me believe that what GWT does is not fully understood. Applications written with GWT are entirely written and debugged in java and your favorite IDE. GWT contains a compiler which translates Java to Javascript, so a user can run the application in the browser. GWT makes different permutations for each browser, to ensure the small (and sometimes big in the case of IE) differences are taken care of. That’s something GWT does by default, nothing which the programmer needs to do. I have actually not written a single sentence of javascript, though OpenSettlers still runs 100% natively (no flash/java applet, 100% html/javascript/css) in the browser. By using GWT, I have a single codebase, and I can support any browser, device (as long as it has a modern browser, like Android and IOS devices) and resolution (abstracted UI in OpenSettlers takes care of this). I don’t have to worry about OSes, since the browser itself abstracts the OS. Apart from the SVG element (GWT 2.2, which supports canvas, removes the need for SVG), I have not yet found any crossbrowser bugs. Crossbrowser support is handled by GWT, not by the programmer coding against GWT.

I am no contributor for Vassal, so the things I share on this forum are just FYI. It’s just my experience devving on a codebase in many aspects similar to Vassal’s. I don’t own Google shares, I’m just a techdude sharing learned lessons :slight_smile:

  • The game server is a single point of failure and will not scale.

Making all of VASSAL web-based, even if it runs mostly in client-side Javascript, will still add strain to an already strained server, and does not solve the single point of failure. If VASSAL must be redone as a web-based platform it must use technology which can run offline (when the server goes down). That leaves HTML5, Adobe AIR/Flex, MS Silverlight. HTML5 is completely unready. Adobe AIR runs on all currently supported platforms, but it basically a fancy Flash app, and I don’t think it is suitable. MS Silverlight I think might be suitable someday, but it does not support Linux. The developer of ZunTzu is looking at Silverlight for ZunTzu 2, but I think it will be a tough nut to crack, and ZunTzu does a whole lot less than VASSAL. While there are some fancy web-apps out there, they all rely on their server and are all custom programmed to support one single game/task.

Bottom line is that I don’t feel that all things considered there is any argument that makes web-based make more sense than a more suitable technology. You find the tools to fit the solution, not fit the solution around the tools. If you make it web-based, you force it through because you feel it must be web-based. Desktop applications provide a richer framework and more offline flexibility. Whats important is choosing one that works best on all three currently supported platforms, is easiest to expand to other platforms (iOS/Android/…), and is easiest for the developers to implement all the existing and future desired features (2D/3D graphics, modules and extensions, Python event scripting, …).

I am not a developer either, so my contribution to this thread is all FYI too. I make desktop and web apps. Completely different field from VASSAL, but code is code :wink: .

Thus spake Michael Kiefte:

As for JavaScript itself, I see dynamic typing as a debugging nightmare.
We’re actually trying to go in the opposite direction with better defensive
programming practises. In addition, we’re currently looking at ways to
expand our capabilities not restrict them further (e.g., better graphics/3D
engine).

I was curious to see what could be done with JavaScript as it is now,
so I worked up two demos over the weekend, one using the HTML5 canvas,
and one using regular DHTML techniques. I’ve put the demos here for you
to try:

vassalengine.org/~uckelman/js-test.tar.bz2
vassalengine.org/~uckelman/js-test.zip

(Both archives have the same content, download the one you prefer.)

Once you’ve unpacked the archive, browse to launch.html, where you’ll
find a link to each of the demos. In each demo, you should be able to
drag around the pieces. In the elements demo, dragging on the map pans
it.

I learned a few things by doing this:

  1. The canvas demo is unusable for me. It turns out that this has
    nothing to do with the huge map image—it’s just as bad when there’s
    no map image. What does matter is the size of the canvas. It works well
    for me at 1000x1000, but 8000x3000 is 24 times larger. I don’t know how
    the canvas is implemented in Firefox 3.6.16, but it seems that they’re
    not using algorithms which scale up well.

Also of note here is the fact that every canvas example I was able to
find on the web assumes that you’ll have about 10 objects on your
canvas, so does collision detection by searching the whole object list
and testing each one for hits, and also repaints the whole canvas every
time something changes. If you do either of these, instead of using a
quadtree for collision detection and repainting only changed regions,
you can’t even get a 1000x1000 canvas to work well with 100 objects on
it.

  1. The elements demo works well for me. It’s also 245 lines of code, 41
    of which are just HTML. The reason it’s so small is that all I had to do
    was write event handlers for some mouse events. The browser is already
    providing all of the collision detection, repainting, drag and drop,
    and image loading. We have thousands of lines of code in VASSAL for doing
    essentially the same thing.


J.

Hi Joel,

Why did you comment out mapZoom(e)?

  • M.

On 28 March 2011 09:13, Joel Uckelman uckelman@nomic.net wrote:

Thus spake Michael Kiefte:

As for JavaScript itself, I see dynamic typing as a debugging nightmare.
We’re actually trying to go in the opposite direction with better
defensive
programming practises. In addition, we’re currently looking at ways to
expand our capabilities not restrict them further (e.g., better
graphics/3D
engine).

I was curious to see what could be done with JavaScript as it is now,
so I worked up two demos over the weekend, one using the HTML5 canvas,
and one using regular DHTML techniques. I’ve put the demos here for you
to try:

vassalengine.org/~uckelman/js-test.tar.bz2
vassalengine.org/~uckelman/js-test.zip

(Both archives have the same content, download the one you prefer.)

Once you’ve unpacked the archive, browse to launch.html, where you’ll
find a link to each of the demos. In each demo, you should be able to
drag around the pieces. In the elements demo, dragging on the map pans
it.

I learned a few things by doing this:

  1. The canvas demo is unusable for me. It turns out that this has
    nothing to do with the huge map image—it’s just as bad when there’s
    no map image. What does matter is the size of the canvas. It works well
    for me at 1000x1000, but 8000x3000 is 24 times larger. I don’t know how
    the canvas is implemented in Firefox 3.6.16, but it seems that they’re
    not using algorithms which scale up well.

Also of note here is the fact that every canvas example I was able to
find on the web assumes that you’ll have about 10 objects on your
canvas, so does collision detection by searching the whole object list
and testing each one for hits, and also repaints the whole canvas every
time something changes. If you do either of these, instead of using a
quadtree for collision detection and repainting only changed regions,
you can’t even get a 1000x1000 canvas to work well with 100 objects on
it.

  1. The elements demo works well for me. It’s also 245 lines of code, 41
    of which are just HTML. The reason it’s so small is that all I had to do
    was write event handlers for some mouse events. The browser is already
    providing all of the collision detection, repainting, drag and drop,
    and image loading. We have thousands of lines of code in VASSAL for doing
    essentially the same thing.


J.

Thus spake Michael Kiefte:

Hi Joel,

Why did you comment out mapZoom(e)?

Uncomment it and see. :slight_smile:

I couldn’t get it to work well enough using CSS scaling to be usable.

I had a third idea which I ran out of time to try, which is to do
everything inside of SVG, where you’ve got (presumably) better-
supported scaling and rotation. Since SVG is part of the DOM, it
wouldn’t be much different from the code you’re looking at.


J.

OpenSettlers does not rely on the webserver for hotseat games and botgames, it runs completely offline as an independent webapp. Off course, when you want to play against other players, a server is necessary.

A p2p server is also a problem for OpenSettlers, see the #1 issue: github.com/generateui/OpenSettl … es#issue/1 . ipv6 might fix this partially (no more NAT portmapping horror), as homeserver platforms like Windows Home Server, Amahi and others might solve this problem too.

The thing about webservers is that afaik, they are built to scale. I don’t have any realworld experience with high loads, but I can imagine it can be easy to add servers and balance the load. It’s in the very DNA of webservers to do this. WebSockets might be a little different beast though, as it’s relatively new and doesn’t really fit in the ‘fire and forget’ nature of handling stateless requests.

When I set out to write OpenSettlers, I had 2 requirements: 1. All variants of the game should be able to be implemented, 2: Users should have no barrier to play.

1 is not interesting in this topic, but 2 is. I came at GWT because a webapp offers the lowest barrier for users to participate. To play, the only thing needed is to enter an URI and click a button. No other platform could and can offer me this: Java applets require JVM install, flash requires the flash plugin, native apps require the traditional download-install-configure process.

The application server must be a ‘native’ application, as there is no way to accept connections in a web browser without plugins. That’s why I plan to offer a central server to play games, but also a central metaserver to list gameservers.

Some choice quotes regarding JavaScript on the Mozilla website that made me
cringe:

JavaScript is a small, lightweight language; it is not useful as a

standalone language, but is designed for easy embedding in other products
and applications, such as web browsers.

JavaScript is a very free-form language compared to Java. You do not have
to declare all variables, classes, and methods. You do not have to be
concerned with whether methods are public, private, or protected, and you do
not have to implement interfaces. Variables, parameters, and function return
types are not explicitly typed.

In expressions involving numeric and string values with the + operator,
JavaScript converts numeric values to strings. For example, consider the
following statements:
1x = “The answer is " + 42 // returns “The answer is 42”
2y = 42 + " is the answer” // returns “42 is the answer”

In statements involving other operators, JavaScript does not convert
numeric values to strings. For example:
1"37" - 7 // returns 30
2"37" + 7 // returns “377”

Another unusual thing about variables in JavaScript is that you can refer
to a variable declared later, without getting an exception.

If an array is created using a literal in a top-level script, JavaScript
interprets the array each time it evaluates the expression containing the
array literal. In addition, a literal used in a function is created each
time the function is called.

That’s just the from first three pages. I’m actually going to learn
JavaScript anyway as I wouldn’t mind using it for some lectures (I use
pdfLaTeX + Beamer and you can embed JavaScript in the resulting PDF). But
it kind of reminds me of MATLAB or perl – not something that you’d want to
do a really big project in. (However, I have done really big projects in
MATLAB and they’re a nightmare to debug).

  • M.

On 28 March 2011 09:35, Joel Uckelman uckelman@nomic.net wrote:

Thus spake Michael Kiefte:

Hi Joel,

Why did you comment out mapZoom(e)?

Uncomment it and see. :slight_smile:

I couldn’t get it to work well enough using CSS scaling to be usable.

I had a third idea which I ran out of time to try, which is to do
everything inside of SVG, where you’ve got (presumably) better-
supported scaling and rotation. Since SVG is part of the DOM, it
wouldn’t be much different from the code you’re looking at.


J.

So did I.

  1. Running the Canvas test doesn’t work - “This text is displayed if your browser does not support HTML5 Canvas.” As one would expect if you are running IE8 or lower which will be at least 60% of the world :slight_smile:

  2. The element test does not work in IE8 either. I can only see the top left corner of whatever is being displayed “Axis Air Points”. see no pieces, cannot scroll the map etc…

too many different browser issues to deal with going this approach

I just had to post this bit. You’re allowed to have an array of length 5 in
which the myArray[3] is invalid following delete myArray[3]; Object
properties seem unmanageable and methods are implemented rather poorly (you
have to assign them like variables). JavaScript seems fine for small
projects where you’re the only developer, but for multi-developer projects,
it would be hard to coordinate. I really can’t imagine working with this for
anything complicated.

From the docs:

At the implementation level, JavaScript’s arrays actually store their

elements as standard object properties, using the array index as the
property name

Didn’t sh used to work like this? I guess there’s a reason why it’s called
JavaScript.

  • M.

On 29 March 2011 15:22, Michael Kiefte mkiefte@dal.ca wrote:

Some choice quotes regarding JavaScript on the Mozilla website that made me
cringe:

JavaScript is a small, lightweight language; it is not useful as a

standalone language, but is designed for easy embedding in other products
and applications, such as web browsers.

JavaScript is a very free-form language compared to Java. You do not have
to declare all variables, classes, and methods. You do not have to be
concerned with whether methods are public, private, or protected, and you do
not have to implement interfaces. Variables, parameters, and function return
types are not explicitly typed.

In expressions involving numeric and string values with the + operator,
JavaScript converts numeric values to strings. For example, consider the
following statements:
1 x = “The answer is " + 42 // returns “The answer is 42”
2y = 42 + " is the answer” // returns “42 is the answer”

In statements involving other operators, JavaScript does not convert
numeric values to strings. For example:
1 “37” - 7 // returns 30
2"37" + 7 // returns “377”

Another unusual thing about variables in JavaScript is that you can refer
to a variable declared later, without getting an exception.

If an array is created using a literal in a top-level script, JavaScript
interprets the array each time it evaluates the expression containing the
array literal. In addition, a literal used in a function is created each
time the function is called.

That’s just the from first three pages. I’m actually going to learn
JavaScript anyway as I wouldn’t mind using it for some lectures (I use
pdfLaTeX + Beamer and you can embed JavaScript in the resulting PDF). But
it kind of reminds me of MATLAB or perl – not something that you’d want to
do a really big project in. (However, I have done really big projects in
MATLAB and they’re a nightmare to debug).

  • M.

On 28 March 2011 09:35, Joel Uckelman uckelman@nomic.net wrote:

Thus spake Michael Kiefte:

Hi Joel,

Why did you comment out mapZoom(e)?

Uncomment it and see. :slight_smile:

I couldn’t get it to work well enough using CSS scaling to be usable.

I had a third idea which I ran out of time to try, which is to do
everything inside of SVG, where you’ve got (presumably) better-
supported scaling and rotation. Since SVG is part of the DOM, it
wouldn’t be much different from the code you’re looking at.


J.

  1. The element test does not work in IE8 either. I can only see the top
    left corner of whatever is being displayed “Axis Air Points”. see no
    pieces, cannot scroll the map etc…

too many different browser issues to deal with going this approach

I couldnt’ scroll it either, but I assumed that was because the scroll bars
had to be implemented specifically. I did see the pieces, however.

  • M.

Thus spake Michael Kiefte:

I couldnt’ scroll it either, but I assumed that was because the scroll bars
had to be implemented specifically. I did see the pieces, however.

Did you try to drag on the map? That’s how scrolling was supposed to
work in the second demo. Were you able to drag the pieces?


J.

I was able to drag the pieces, but not scroll the map. I did try clicking
on the map.

  • M.

On 30 March 2011 06:04, Joel Uckelman uckelman@nomic.net wrote:

Thus spake Michael Kiefte:

I couldnt’ scroll it either, but I assumed that was because the scroll
bars
had to be implemented specifically. I did see the pieces, however.

Did you try to drag on the map? That’s how scrolling was supposed to
work in the second demo. Were you able to drag the pieces?


J.

Thus spake Michael Kiefte:

I was able to drag the pieces, but not scroll the map. I did try clicking
on the map.

Clicking on the map, or dragging? Just clicking on the map won’t do
anything.

In what browser?


J.

I finished reading the Mozilla documentation on JavaScript, and inheritance
is a nightmare. Since there are not classes, inheritance is based on a
prototype instantiation. The syntax for inheritance is a gigantic kludge and
there appear to be several ways of doing it–none of which are necessarily
intuitive. I have a sudden urge to do everything in assembler. There are a
few other quirks that will make it bug prone – some of which I posted
above. I was against JavaScript before I started investigating it and now
I’m actually much more firm in my opposition. It’s a bad language.

  • M.

On 29 March 2011 17:25, Michael Kiefte mkiefte@dal.ca wrote:

I just had to post this bit. You’re allowed to have an array of length 5
in which the myArray[3] is invalid following delete myArray[3]; Object
properties seem unmanageable and methods are implemented rather poorly (you
have to assign them like variables). JavaScript seems fine for small
projects where you’re the only developer, but for multi-developer projects,
it would be hard to coordinate. I really can’t imagine working with this for
anything complicated.

From the docs:

At the implementation level, JavaScript’s arrays actually store their

elements as standard object properties, using the array index as the
property name

Didn’t sh used to work like this? I guess there’s a reason why it’s called
JavaScript.

  • M.

On 29 March 2011 15:22, Michael Kiefte mkiefte@dal.ca wrote:

Some choice quotes regarding JavaScript on the Mozilla website that made
me cringe:

JavaScript is a small, lightweight language; it is not useful as a

standalone language, but is designed for easy embedding in other products
and applications, such as web browsers.

JavaScript is a very free-form language compared to Java. You do not have
to declare all variables, classes, and methods. You do not have to be
concerned with whether methods are public, private, or protected, and you do
not have to implement interfaces. Variables, parameters, and function return
types are not explicitly typed.

In expressions involving numeric and string values with the + operator,
JavaScript converts numeric values to strings. For example, consider the
following statements:
1 x = “The answer is " + 42 // returns “The answer is 42”
2y = 42 + " is the answer” // returns “42 is the answer”

In statements involving other operators, JavaScript does not convert
numeric values to strings. For example:
1 “37” - 7 // returns 30
2"37" + 7 // returns “377”

Another unusual thing about variables in JavaScript is that you can refer
to a variable declared later, without getting an exception.

If an array is created using a literal in a top-level script, JavaScript
interprets the array each time it evaluates the expression containing the
array literal. In addition, a literal used in a function is created each
time the function is called.

That’s just the from first three pages. I’m actually going to learn
JavaScript anyway as I wouldn’t mind using it for some lectures (I use
pdfLaTeX + Beamer and you can embed JavaScript in the resulting PDF). But
it kind of reminds me of MATLAB or perl – not something that you’d want to
do a really big project in. (However, I have done really big projects in
MATLAB and they’re a nightmare to debug).

  • M.

On 28 March 2011 09:35, Joel Uckelman uckelman@nomic.net wrote:

Thus spake Michael Kiefte:

Hi Joel,

Why did you comment out mapZoom(e)?

Uncomment it and see. :slight_smile:

I couldn’t get it to work well enough using CSS scaling to be usable.

I had a third idea which I ran out of time to try, which is to do
everything inside of SVG, where you’ve got (presumably) better-
supported scaling and rotation. Since SVG is part of the DOM, it
wouldn’t be much different from the code you’re looking at.


J.

No I tried that. I was on Firefox (not the latest I think) on a MacBook Pro
running Linux. The MagicMouse is a little wierd under Linux, but it works
for everything else (except there’s no middle button and there is no virtual
scroll wheel). I didn’t try it on anything else.

  • M.

On 30 March 2011 06:10, Joel Uckelman uckelman@nomic.net wrote:

Thus spake Michael Kiefte:

I was able to drag the pieces, but not scroll the map. I did try
clicking
on the map.

Clicking on the map, or dragging? Just clicking on the map won’t do
anything.

In what browser?

Thus spake Michael Kiefte:

I finished reading the Mozilla documentation on JavaScript, and inheritance
is a nightmare. Since there are not classes, inheritance is based on a
prototype instantiation. The syntax for inheritance is a gigantic kludge and
there appear to be several ways of doing it–none of which are necessarily
intuitive. I have a sudden urge to do everything in assembler. There are a
few other quirks that will make it bug prone – some of which I posted
above. I was against JavaScript before I started investigating it and now
I’m actually much more firm in my opposition. It’s a bad language.

I’m not in favor of it either. Making those demos was an interesting
exercise, but I don’t see that JavaScript is suitable for a large
project. The fact that it’s dynamically, weakly typed will make testing
hard, and the lack of block scoping rules strikes me as error-prone. I
think it would be interesting to have a web-based client, but I think it
shouldn’t be the primary client. Maybe by the time we’re ready to
develop something web-based, browser support will be in a better state
(e.g., WebGL will be available).

I think the next thing I’m going to look into is making the same demo
in Python, using the OpenGL bindings.


J.

I thought you hated Python. I’ve never used it but I know it has a lot of fans.

The more I think about it though, the more I like Java. It’s pretty good. Although if we want a better looking UI, we may want to consider SWT instead of Swing.

Java is a good language to attract new developers. And now with Gosling at Google, it may survive the next decade.

  • M.

On 2011-03-30, at 7:28 AM, Joel Uckelman uckelman@nomic.net wrote:

Thus spake Michael Kiefte:

I finished reading the Mozilla documentation on JavaScript, and inheritance
is a nightmare. Since there are not classes, inheritance is based on a
prototype instantiation. The syntax for inheritance is a gigantic kludge and
there appear to be several ways of doing it–none of which are necessarily
intuitive. I have a sudden urge to do everything in assembler. There are a
few other quirks that will make it bug prone – some of which I posted
above. I was against JavaScript before I started investigating it and now
I’m actually much more firm in my opposition. It’s a bad language.

I’m not in favor of it either. Making those demos was an interesting
exercise, but I don’t see that JavaScript is suitable for a large
project. The fact that it’s dynamically, weakly typed will make testing
hard, and the lack of block scoping rules strikes me as error-prone. I
think it would be interesting to have a web-based client, but I think it
shouldn’t be the primary client. Maybe by the time we’re ready to
develop something web-based, browser support will be in a better state
(e.g., WebGL will be available).

I think the next thing I’m going to look into is making the same demo
in Python, using the OpenGL bindings.


J.


messages mailing list
messages@vassalengine.org
vassalengine.org/mailman/listinfo/messages

Thus spake Michael Kiefte:

I thought you hated Python. I’ve never used it but I know it has a lot of fa
ns.

What I dislike about it is the whitespace rules. Nonetheless, a lot of
people seem to like it, and there are tons of good libraries. So I want
to investigate it to see if it would be appropriate.

The more I think about it though, the more I like Java. It’s pretty good. Al
though if we want a better looking UI, we may want to consider SWT instead of
Swing.

Java is a good language to attract new developers. And now with Gosling at Go
ogle, it may survive the next decade.

The things which worry me the most about Java are:

  • Swing bugs
  • Image loading bugs
  • Jumping through hoops due to heap sizing
  • Mac support
  • Hard-to-troubleshoot launching problems
  • Whether the desktop ecosystem is dying

We could avoid the first one by not using Swing. We could avoid the
second by using some third-party image-loading library, but I haven’t
found a very complete one in the little looking I did. In both cases,
we can’t do much to get the problems fixed—some of the image loading
bugs I’ve encountered are years old. If we were using some library not
part of the JDK, then at least we could patch the thing ourselves and
ship that.

The heap sizing issue is just incredibly annoying, both in terms of
support and the code we have which tries to work around it, and I don’t
see any solution for this on the horizon.

It’s not clear to me what the long-term situation of Java on the Mac is
—we might suddenly find that there is no longer a working JVM there.
Using it also prevents us from having something which could work on iOS.

Because we’re relying on the JVM, we end up with all kinds of weird
launching failure problems on Windows, which wouldn’t happen if VASSAL
were run from its own binary. I’m also not convinced that Google’s
support of Java will help with Java on the desktop—it might mean that
we end up with good Java support on Android phones and tablets, but not
on the desktop.

So, I’m not ruling it out. But it seems saddled with a lot of problems.


J.

  • Swing bugs

You could substitute those with SWT bugs!

  • Image loading bugs

I doubt that would improve with SWT. If anything, SWT is harder to work
with, but it looks nicer.

  • Jumping through hoops due to heap sizing

That problem will never go away.

  • Mac support

Which is declining apparently.

  • Hard-to-troubleshoot launching problems

I haven’t been paying much attention to that.

  • Whether the desktop ecosystem is dying

In Java specifically or with desktops in general? Desktops will be around
for quite a long time and there is even some evidence they have gained on
game consoles. But Java may be dying on the desktop.

In other news wxWidgets posted a new release yesterday, so at least they’re
active. Working with wxWidgets is not without some pain, but at least we
can contribute fixes. Qt is still out there, but there’s a lot of news
about whether Nokia will even exist in 5 years given some controversial
decisions they’ve made. Although KDE may save it, KDE will likely not care
about development on new platforms.

wxWidgets doesn’t really have a good record of expanding to new platforms
either. Ironically, what they really need is some corporate sponsorship.

Of course the main advantages of either Qt or wxWidgets is the vast number
of libraries available for C and C++. Oh and I forgot about GTK which is
very hard to use. Has anyone compiled anything with GTK for Windows besides
GIMP?

I’m not sure who to root for.

  • M.

Of course the main advantages of either Qt or wxWidgets is the vast number
of libraries available for C and C++. Oh and I forgot about GTK which is
very hard to use. Has anyone compiled anything with GTK for Windows besides
GIMP?

Evidently, someone has:

gtk.org/screenshots.html

Not a lot of diversity. I still have a GTK book lying around somewhere.
Never did anything with it. Lot of hoops to jump through to do OOP in C.

  • M.