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Postby Brent Easton » February 26th, 2008, 7:02 am

Look Ben,

I think we just have to be careful to discuss issues quietly and rationally, even if we don't agree with them.

I re-ignited the discussion because it was not resolved at all. Discussion just dried up.

Honestly, we developers probably don't really need separate lists for different sections as most of the posts are ours, but we have this nagging feeling that it is a feature that should be there. Perhaps you are right and no-one actually wants it except Tim, but with only 225 subscribers from 1559 that subscribe to the Yahoo group, I feel that it is an issue that will probably be important to a subset of users over time. There is no way a timid subcsriber would mention that they want this feature knowing they are going to get their head snapped off by you.

Why not spend the time and sort it out now, and gain the admiration of both the Vassal and M2F Devs at the same time?

If you really don't want to, and the topic comes up again, then just politely mention that it is a future enhancement that is on the cards, should there be sufficient demand.

Do you know how many times I have had to politely answer questions like 'How do I show different images on the same counter?'. We just have to politely point them in the right direction, no matter how much we want to yell at them 8) Its the same principle

Cheers,
Brent.
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Postby bsmith » February 26th, 2008, 7:19 am

Brent Easton wrote:Why not spend the time and sort it out now, and gain the admiration of both the Vassal and M2F Devs at the same time?


To be honest, I'm not at all interested in being admired. But I'll look into the issue because it may be the best thing for Vassal, that's what I really care about. When I step back and get over myself, I can see your logic that pissing off developers is bad for the project. And if keeping developers happy means making changes to M2F and the forum then that's the way it is! :D
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Postby uckelman » February 26th, 2008, 8:18 am

Thus spake "bsmith":
Try this Michael, when you see the front page click "View posts since last v
isit". Really, it doesn't get any simpler.


Nevertheless, it's clear that many users simply want to subscribe to
an e-mail list. How can we break up the forums into separate e-mail
lists so that people can subscribe to individual forums without
resorting to e-mail filters?


Who are these "many users" Michael and what makes it so clear? You're the on
ly person so far who has an issue, why can't you use an e-mail filters like I
suggested?

I'm not doing any more work on this for only a handful of people, unless some
one can prove conclusively that we really need it. So far all I'm seeing is
a few developers who just kinda recon there are heaps of users out there who
want a mailing list. But the facts point to entirely the opposite trend.

We're arguing that the present mailing list setup drives users away
from the mailing list. This is a claim about the cause of the low
number of users subscribed to the list. You can't legitimately offer
the low number of users subscribed as _evidence_ agaist this claim.

I think the only way we will be able to resolve this is by fixing the
way Mail2Forum handles mailing lists. (I've already detailed how to do
that, BTW.)

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Postby uckelman » February 26th, 2008, 2:31 pm

Thus spake "bsmith":
Unfortunately, like everything in life, it's not perfect. You do need to mak
e some effort. If a user only wanted to view Opponents Wanted then he would
manually go into that section and read the threads. He would not use "View a
ll posts since last visit".


How did I get isolated in this discussion?


Well, you are the original poster of this thread, you started the topic! :)


Michael is not the first person to ask for this, as you're no doubt
aware.

Exactly. Thankfully the average person does not want to use an e-mail list s
o there's no problem.


I'm getting awfully tired of having this repeated. You have no evidence
for this, because there are currently artificial impediments to using
the email list. You speak as though there is a fair contest between
the two, but there is not. This is what we are complaining about, in
fact.

Even if it were the case that the majority of VASSAL users prefer the
forum, that doesn't make fixing the way lists work pointless. Far from
it, when the people who are asking for it are some of the people who
write the code. I don't really care if you see it as some sort of
quaint old-fashionedness that some of us prefer to use email, all I
care about is the brute fact that some of us do, and I think it's
worth accomodating that.

By now, we could have written a patch for M2F to handle this for all
the effort put into this discussion.

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Postby uckelman » February 26th, 2008, 2:35 pm

Thus spake "bsmith":
I'll fix the RSS stuff soon.


Why? You have more people asking for the mailing lists to be fixed
than for RSS. Seems like a pointless waste of effort, if you ask me.

Grrrrr.


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Re: Unsubscribe

Postby bsmith » February 26th, 2008, 3:49 pm

uckelman wrote:Why? You have more people asking for the mailing lists to be fixed than for RSS. Seems like a pointless waste of effort, if you ask me.


RSS is easy to fix, should only take half an hour I think.
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Postby mkiefte » February 26th, 2008, 3:52 pm

For example, the only way I'm able to keep up with whats going on is
via my mobile device. Viewing the forum via my mobile device sucks.
And if the email option wasn't available, well, I just wouldn't be
able to read when I have the chance (which means I just wouldn't).
The web-based solution doesn't work for mobile devices.

Ironically, I'm reading these posts from a Palm device. Palm blows
but it's convenient. The web-based forum is definitely impossible
with a Palm device though.

I think the tone of this discussion has degenerated. Ben has already
offered his apologies and some concessions as well.

The web-based forum does look quite nice and it's obvious he's put
quite a lot into it. However, like all things computer-based, it's
always going to be a work in progress. We can't compel Ben to do
whatever we want, but I think someone could offer to do it instead.
Don't look at me though -- I have almost zero experience with even
HTML.

The major feature we need is separate subscriptions for each of the
forums. We need something like checkboxes or whatever. That will
help people reading the forums via e-mail as well as on the web-based
forums.

The other thing I would suggest is that the site record what has been
read instead of relying on the last login time. The other reason I'm
still stuck on e-mail based forums is because I know what I have and
have not read. I often do not have time to read everything in one go
and the reason I don't respond to issues very quickly on occasion is
that sometimes I just don't have the time to catch up and I'll read
the most recent posts piecemeal.

RSS is not a bad idea, but it's probably not high priority. My naive
impression is that it would be somewhat harder than the other issues
to implement.

- M.

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Postby uckelman » February 26th, 2008, 4:19 pm

Thus spake "bsmith":
I am responsible; Apology to all. I've been stepping on lots of toes, I sh
ould know that Vassal is what it is because of the effort you guys put in. I
let it get out of hand so I'm sorry about that. I think I was frustrated th
e topic came up because I had convinced myself the forum had been settled.

But look, you guys obviously do feel strongly about the filtering issue, and
I need to be more receptive to developer's needs.

Am I correct in saying a fix would be to create a separate mailing list for e
ach forum section?


I could be misremembering, because it's been some time since I looked
at this, so you should check this yourself, but---it's not possible
to have multiple external lists bridging one forum.

In talking with one of the M2F devs, I described what I think we want:

http://www.mail2forum.com/forums/viewto ... 3782#13782

The idea is that for each category, you can specify an external mailing
list instead of one external list for the whole site. This way, you have
complete freedom in how you pair lists with categories.

In order to implement this, all you'd need is to add an extra test in
the place in the code where M2F decides where to put incoming mail
(you'd match subjects like it does already, but the default category
for each list could be different) and an extra test in the outgoing
mail part to set the correct list address based on the category.

(I'd be willing to show you where this is in the M2F code, too, since
I've already gone so far as to find it myself.)

One thing we'd need to decide is how we want to map categories to
lists. Probably we want the developers cateogry to get its own list.
As for how to funnel the other categories into lists, I don't have
any strong feelings.

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Postby uckelman » February 26th, 2008, 4:20 pm

Thus spake "bsmith":
uckelman wrote:
Why? You have more people asking for the mailing lists to be fixed than for
RSS. Seems like a pointless waste of effort, if you ask me.


RSS is easy to fix, should only take half an hour I think.


I was being sarcastic here, BTW, in case it wasn't obvious.

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Postby timpelican » February 26th, 2008, 5:28 pm

On Tue, February 26, 2008 3:52 pm, Michael Kiefte wrote:

The other thing I would suggest is that the site record what has been
read instead of relying on the last login time. The other reason I'm
still stuck on e-mail based forums is because I know what I have and
have not read. I often do not have time to read everything in one go
and the reason I don't respond to issues very quickly on occasion is
that sometimes I just don't have the time to catch up and I'll read
the most recent posts piecemeal.

This is, for me, another big win of the email interface. Things that I
want to re-read properly or respond to later can stay in my Inbox, or be
marked as unread or to-do, all the rest gets filed off somewhere as it's
read. Much more flexibility than either time-stamped or once you've seen
it, you've seen it.

Cheers,
Tim.





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