Ability to customize text for standard deck commands (Draw selected / Draw multiple)
Ability to hide standard deck commands (Draw selected / Draw multiple / Reshuffle)
Ability to hide deck global key commands
Option to hide at module/map level the command keys associated with a certain right click command
Ability to poll and modify order/values of List sub-components in Turn Counters
0voters
Hello, I have browsed for a while the feature request tracker but not found the following features, which I think might be kind of straightforward to include asap. Apologies in advance if, instead, they are/were already discussed elsewhere.
Moreover, I hope I do not breach any rule by starting a small poll, hoping somebody might find my requests reasonable and useful enough to vote for them. However, if I do breach some written or unwritten rule, please, go ahead and delete the all post or poll, and please accept my humble apologies.
DECK related:
I think it would be nice to be able to customize the text showing when one checks “Allow multiple/specific cards to be drawn”, because sometimes decks are not at all made up of cards but of other kind of pieces
It would also be nice to be able to hide the “Allow multiple/specific cards to be drawn” deck commands as well as the send all deck to other deck (Reshuffle) whenever some conditions are not met (see Restrict Command trait on basic pieces)
Similarly, it would also be nice to be able to hide deck global key commands (again, see Restrict Command trait)
PIECE/STACK related:
The actual command keys associated to a trait are not really needed by players, and are actually rather confusing, I think. For example, if a unit has a delete trait with associated “Delete” text and “CTRL-D” command, the player should only see “Delete” (unless the module designer really wants to show keyboard shortcuts for everything). In other words, there should be an option to avoid displaying command keys associated with a trait: just show the text. Ideally this option could be at module (or map) level.
TURN COUNTER related:
It would be really nice to be able to alter the default order defined in any List sub-component, without having to manually do it by hand. I mean, for example, exposing the strings listed in the List as global properties, which one could then access and modify via set global properties traits.
This should be fairly straightforward to do in VASSAL 4.
I would strongly encourage you to reconsider not providing hotkeys to players. Hotkeys are one of the things that experienced users use in order to be able to work efficiently.
Regarding #4: in the kind of module I am writing - where I try to control game flow and enforce all rules - using command keys/hotkeys would just be confusing and it would be nice to have an option to hide them (just show the command text). Just curious if this a difficult feature to implement or it would be a piece of cake… in which case, some developer pray consider it .
Regarding #4: in the kind of module I am writing - where I try to
control game flow and enforce all rules - using command keys/hotkeys
would just be confusing and it would be nice to have an option to hide
them (just show the command text). Just curious if this a difficult
feature to implement or it would be a piece of cake… in which case,
some developer pray consider it .
If the reason you’re want to hide hotkeys is that they attach to entries
which are not supposed to be user-triggered at all, then you can use
named triggers in 3.2.
Regarding #4, I didn’t vote for it because I agree with Joel - if you have a menu entry I think it should have a hotkey. If it’s not really supposed to be user-accessible, just don’t enter a command name and it won’t clutter up your context menu at all.
I would like a user to right-click on a piece and see, for example, “Clone”, “Fortify”, “Delete”, “Mask”, “Send home” etc without him/her seeing “Clone CTRL C”, “Fortify CTRL F”, “Delete CTRL D” etc.
In other words: this are command that the user needs to be able to do, not something that it should be hidden from them (for that I use no text, restrict commands etc etc).
For my module at least, the CTRL C, CTRL F etc part of the right click menu is just confusing.
Think of the standard deck commands like “Reshuffle” or any other custom deck global key command: they don’t show the CTRL something part, just the text.
Why couldn’t be the same hiding of command key be done for normal stacks? Ideally, I think, it could be optionally hidden at map level, like one can hide “movement ending here” or similar.
Regarding #4, I didn’t vote for it because I agree with Joel - if you
have a menu entry I think it should have a hotkey. If it’s not really
supposed to be user-accessible, just don’t enter a command name and it
won’t clutter up your context menu at all.
Wait, maybe I didn’t explain myself clearly.
I would like a user to right-click on a piece and see, for example,
“Clone”, “Fortify”, “Delete”, “Mask”, “Send home” etc without him/her
seeing “Clone CTRL C”, “Fortify CTRL F”, “Delete CTRL D” etc.
So, what you’re wanting is what I thought you wanted originaly. Thanks
for the clarification.
I claim that not providing hotkeys for program functions is bad design.
As a result, I’m opposed to implementing this.
For my module at least, the CTRL C, CTRL F etc part of the right click
menu is just confusing.
Why do you think having hotkeys for these things is confusing?
Not sure what named triggers will do, but it sounds promising (but maybe
not for what I was asking about, see previous reply).
Before 3.2, every action had to have a hotkey, even ones which were
only intended to be triggered by other actions, not directly by the
user. This led to module designers choosing very unlikely key
combinations as hotkeys for such actions, in order that they not be
accidentally triggered—but that’s only a band-aid, not a real
solution to the problem. For 3.2 we’ve added actions which can be
triggered by name rather than by hotkey, so that this ungainly
workaround is no longer necessary.
What about deck commands then? They don’t provide hotkeys. Bad design?
Well, I think a lot of people are a bit scared off from using Vassal because it still has a bit of a geek-type feel. The idea you have to right click on something is already scary enough, I think (most people expect to left click or maybe double-click to interact with something), so that reducing further sources of possible bewilderment to newbies is maybe a good idea, imho.
It could be an option, at least. If not at module editing level than at client interface level (“Don’t show command keys” in the preferences).
This is really interesting. It will definitively save me from a) beating my head on the wall whenever I have to come out with a new key combination (lots less needed if I can use names) and b) save me from adding tons of restrict command traits.
Very good idea, thanks in advance to all the developers.
I claim that not providing hotkeys for program functions is bad
design.
As a result, I’m opposed to implementing this.
What about deck commands then? They don’t provide hotkeys. Bad design?
I would say they should, and it’s bad design that they don’t. There are
many things in VASSAL 3 that I won’t defend as good design choices.
Why do you think having hotkeys for these things is confusing?
Well, I think a lot of people are a bit scared off from using Vassal
because it still has a bit of a geek-type feel. The idea you have to
right click on something is already scary enough, I think (most people
expect to left click or maybe double-click to interact with something),
so that reducing further sources of possible bewilderment to newbies is
maybe a good idea, imho.
I can’t recall any GUI I’ve seen that raises a context menu by left- or
double-clicking—I would find that surprising. Can you give an example
of one?
It could be an option, at least. If not at module editing level than at
client interface level (“Don’t show command keys” in the preferences).
Will someone who finds the display of hotkeys in menus confusing be
advanced enough to go looking in the preferences for a way to turn them
off?
Well, I don’t know about you, but just about 95% of what I do on my computer, from editing
a text or surfing the web or watching a video, is left-click or double-left-click controlled.
I can only remember using right-click only when needing more “advanced”
functionalities (like “print this page” or “check the authentication certificates” or “view
page source” on a web page), which I don’t really use that often… or with Vassal.
I know that replacing right click menu with anything else (like a context sensitive toolbar
or sidebar) is a LOT more development work. I am just saying that it would be nice, in an
ideal world, and more immediately popular with most gamers. I can only thank the Vassal
creator and developers for giving us this amazing tool, whatever the possible “constraints”
of its present GUI.
Anyway, to go back to the original argument, If you right click on this page do you see
“Back CTRL-B”, “Reload CTRL-X”, “Print ALT-F10” or just “Back”, “Reload”, “Print” ?
Yeah, best option would to leave that option to the module designer
I can’t recall any GUI I’ve seen that raises a context menu by left-
or
double-clicking—I would find that surprising. Can you give an
example
of one?
Well, I don’t know about you, but just about 95% of what I do on my
computer, from editing
a text or surfing the web or watching a video, is left-click or
double-left-click controlled.
Note that I asked specifically about raising context menus, not
interaction generally.
I know that replacing right click menu with anything else (like a
context sensitive toolbar
or sidebar) is a LOT more development work.
Whether it is or isn’t a lot of work doesn’t cut any ice with me,
because changes like this would go into VASSAL 4, not VASSAL 3. I’m
mainly interested in whether what you propose is a better design.
The thing which I expect would be frustraing about replacing context
menus with a tool- or sidebar is that these need not be anywhere near
the piece being manipulated, so would require much more mousing than
what we have now (or would drive everyone to learn the hotkeys).
Anyway, to go back to the original argument, If you right click on this
page do you see
“Back CTRL-B”, “Reload CTRL-X”, “Print ALT-F10” or just “Back”,
“Reload”, “Print” ?
That’s interesting—I’d not noticed before which programs have hotkeys
indicated in context menus and which don’t. (I’m checking this on
Linux.) Firefox, evince, eog, gnome-terminal, nemiver, and kcachegrind do
not. GIMP and Inkscape do. Eclipse does for a few context menu items, but
there are ones which I know have hotkeys that it doesn’t display. Gvim
doesn’t have context menus.
Dead right. Please do not do that to Vassal. Short cut keys make the program much quicker once you come up to speed and can drop the mouse for some of the functions.
In Windows world there are many programs which don’t have good short cut key assignments, which is part of what makes working in Windows world a real pain. Good software has short cut keys there for when you become experienced enough to dump the mouse. I would have actually argued for MORE short cut key assignments, especially in the module editor because that is one place where I am constantly click-click-clicking repetitively.
Correct me if I am wrong, but I think barbanera is coming from the Windows perspective, and wants a program where you spend your whole time clicking to get things done. Is this correct? Personally I will give this the big thumbs down and vote against this. We need more short cut keys not less.
While it’s true that in recent years I have been almost 100% Windows based, I don’t think that is the real issue here.
After all, what about all the people coming from the Apple perspective? Even much less used to gymnicks such as command key short-cuts than Windows user, I bet!
Any way, the real issue I think is that I am coming from the gaming perspective. Ask any Doom or World of Warcraft or The Sims player if they normally use command key short cuts to play or not. Or if, instead, they are used to click on something, have some window/toolbar/etc popping up, select icon/button/whatever to issue orders etc. I haven’t actually played any of the above games but I think you can see my point (I strongly doubt there are combo key combinations to do most things if at all!).
IMHO, it is a matter of playing style or module designing style. If a module follows the typical Vassal tradition of giving a virtual game table and virtual components to players to mess around at will, then combo keys are a must, I guess, and kudos to that and if the developers want to give more fine by me. However, if the module wants to try enforcing rules and give a video/pc game look and feel to the game play, then it should be possible to avoid right click commands and, especially, combo keys.
I don’t think it would be too difficult for the developers to give a simple option “turn combo keys off from showing in right click menu” at Global Options level or, even better, at map level (so that in some map one might want to have some combo keys showing, and in some others not).
We could spend long hours discussing the consequences of Apple marketing hype but that probably wouldn’t get us anywhere. To be totally honest and looking at Apple users as a group, I doubt that any group who were prepared to spend many $100’s for an iPhone or iPad when the Android equivalents are there for a fraction of the cost is actually capable of saying anything constructive about the utility or practicality of software.
The point is, and this has always been true for no matter how many or what kind of Windows or Linux applications I have used, short cut keys are an absolute must. The mouse is a clumsy invention used for finding your way around when you really don’t know how to use an application. Once you learn the ways, you can drop the mouse for a lot of stuff. Actually I find that often I am pushing short cuts with my left and the mouse with the right. But if I can reduce some functions down to a quick sequence of control keys, then I am usually happy.
There is no way you can do anything quickly with a mouse. Just doesn’t work. The Apple people will pretend they can but then they are good at pretending or they wouldn’t be using Apple in the first place.
I do know that for example a right click doesn’t exist on Apple. I had to guide an Apple user to find the equivalent recently in an online game. That is a deficiency in Apple world not in the real world.
And for Vassal, well when I replay a log file the other player sent me, it is PAGE DOWN I am pressing not the toolbar symbol. I wouldn’t even bother moving the mouse up there in the first place when the PAGE DOWN key is just near my right hand.
Enforcing rules? No, the players enforce the rules. In fact the rules come from the book that came with the game in the first place. Vassal is there just to allow me to communicate my moves with the other guy. Really the game was a board and counters in the box. So, we enforce the rules. In fact I would make a deliberate point as a module designer of NOT enforcing ANY rules of any kind. Give the players the freedom to work this out themselves. You have to remember, out in the real world people play the same game in different ways with different variations. Sometimes we pick up a pen and paper, perhaps some symbols on the blank counters that came with the game. Perhaps some house or local rules. As I said, I make a deliberate point of not enforcing any rules. Just give the players the board, pieces, markers, some space and latitude, and let them decide how they will play the game.
If you want to enforce rules and give a video/pc game look and feel, perhaps you should try Flash rather than Vassal?
(Long blurb about Apple vs being a cool Linux(?) geek omitted)
I couldn’t give a dime more than you do for Apple users. I was just making the point if that you seem to be sneering at me for coming from Windows perspective, then imagine whoever comes from an Apple one. Indeed, I tried yesterday a game online vs my nephew who was using a MacBook and right clicking (or even left clicking) was a real pain in the neck.
Well, mate… first of all you seem to have lost yourself in your own eloquence, ending up distorting the original point.
The point was about having right-click combo keys not showing up in right click menus. That doesn’t mean they are not there anymore! Hell, I will surely be happy to provide a chart of all available right-click short cuts for whoever prefers to use them! In my humble opinion, though, a large chunk of players - those coming from a pc/video game background rather than a geek/programmer/mighty-Vassal-geek one - would benefit instead from not having the confusion of combo keys showing up, at least initially.
Lastly, since you went into discussing rule enforcement, then I must say that I object to your absolutistic tone and I feel commited to point out a couple things:
if you don’t like enforcing rules with Vassal it’s just your personal opinion, isn’t it? You should probably concede other people, even if a minority out there, might like to actually try enforce rules, at least for certain games where the module designer feels it might make a difference in the enjoyment of the game. As for myself, I decided the game I was interested in would greatly benefit from some form of rule enforcement, turning it from overlong and convoluted to play (real life) to actually enjoyable. Or that was my gamble, at least. Therefore, I decided to work in the framework of the current Vassal engine to try pushing the envelope and enforce rules as much as possible. And, as a matter of fact, I just released version 1.0 of my module where I enforce like 95% of the rules. (The other 5% I could not enforce with current Vassal engine.) In other words, it can be done, no need for Flash, thank you very much…
afaik, there are discussions on going by the actual developers on how to do some rule enforcement in Vassal 4. In other words, it is not just humble module-designer-me, but something which is being discussed by those in the know. I don’t know what they plan, or even what rule enforcement actually means from a general programming logic perspective, but you might want to check those discussions out and voice your legitimate opinion there.
I was just asking for the option to hide combo keys…
Yep agreed about the Apple problems. I’ve been in the same situation before.
My point still stands. Thats how I design the modules and the rational behind it. I think where you are coming from is a different type of game, thats why I made the point about using Flash and I am serious about that. It will do those things for you. In a previous posting you mentioned Doom and other games like that, and I just couldn’t see the connection here. Perhaps new games appearing which are Vassal only, or didn’t originate as a real paper and cardboard game, might be drawing development in that direction? It is cool if you want to do that stuff, but just be mindful while you guys push the envelope in a different direction, that some of us are using it for traditional board games. And for us, keyboard short cuts are not gymnicks (sic) - your words.
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