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Where to get rules to games

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Where to get rules to games

Postby joe m » October 9th, 2008, 2:29 am

I'm new to Vassal and there are several games I used to play years ago, but I do not have the rules to them. Where can I get the rules for these games?
jamedeiros@comcast.net
I'm interested in finding Victory in the Pacific opponents.
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Where to get rules to games

Postby Brent Easton » October 9th, 2008, 3:00 am

Hi James,

I'm new to Vassal and there are several games I used to play years ago,
but I do not have the rules to them. Where can I get the rules for these
games?

In the box when you buy a second hand copy of the game. All of these games are still copyright their owners and the rules are not freely available.

Regards,
B.



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Where to get rules to games

Postby uckelman » October 9th, 2008, 7:30 am

Thus spake "joe m":
I'm new to Vassal and there are several games I used to play years ago, but I
do not have the rules to them. Where can I get the rules for these games?
jamedeiros@comcast.net


If they're games you don't own copies of (and they're not in the public
domain) then you should buy these games in order to get the rules. Ebay
is a good place to look, as is FineGames.com.

--
J.

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rules to games

Postby joe m » October 9th, 2008, 5:58 pm

1. I already have the game Alexander, but some pages of rules are missing. How could I get the rules without buying a game that I already own.

2. Also, if I wanted to play a game in Vassal, would I have to purchase the game to get the rules?
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Where to get rules to games

Postby uckelman » October 9th, 2008, 6:11 pm

Thus spake "joe m":
1. I already have the game Alexander, but some pages of rules are missing. H
ow could I get the rules without buying a game that I already own.

In that case, I'd ask around on the Consimworld forum for the game to see
if anyone is willing to scan or photocop the missing pages for you.

2. Also, if I wanted to play a game in Vassal, would I have to purchase the
game to get the rules?

Yes.

--
J.

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Where to get rules to games

Postby joe m » October 9th, 2008, 6:20 pm

Joel,

Thanks for the info.




-------------- Original message --------------
From: Joel Uckelman <uckelman@nomic.net>

Thus spake "joe m":
1. I already have the game Alexander, but some pages of rules are missing. H
ow could I get the rules without buying a game that I already own.

In that case, I'd ask around on the Consimworld forum for the game to see
if anyone is willing to scan or photocop the missing pages for you.

2. Also, if I wanted to play a game in Vassal, would I have to purchase the
game to get the rules?

Yes.

--
J.

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Where to get rules to games

Postby timpelican » October 9th, 2008, 7:27 pm

Joel Uckelman wrote:

2. Also, if I wanted to play a game in Vassal, would I have to purchase the
game to get the rules?

Yes.

But surely if two or more people are playing, only one of them needs to
own the game, just like a physical board game. Right?

Regards,
Tim.


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Where to get rules to games

Postby tar » October 10th, 2008, 4:24 pm

On Oct 9, 2008, at 12:26 PM, Tim Franklin wrote:

Joel Uckelman wrote:

2. Also, if I wanted to play a game in Vassal, would I have to
purchase the
game to get the rules?

Yes.

But surely if two or more people are playing, only one of them needs
to
own the game, just like a physical board game. Right?

That certainly sounds like a reasonable interpretation to me.


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Postby Shad » October 11th, 2008, 7:18 am

That's certainly the implication, but as there's no way to prove that one (or more) people playing on VASSAL actually do own the game, the official position is that *everyone* must own the game.

This is a frequent argument on BGG.
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Postby Skorpio » October 11th, 2008, 7:19 am

I think for the most games it's necessary to own the rulebooks, unless you know the rules very well. Describing the rules to someone online means a lot of stress. Perhaps it's easier, if you use VOIP.
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Where to get rules to games

Postby timpelican » October 11th, 2008, 8:34 am

Shad wrote:

That's certainly the implication, but as there's no way to prove that
one (or more) people playing on VASSAL actually do own the game, the
official position is that *everyone* must own the game.


Sorry, "official" from which official of what, exactly?

Two issues with that: firstly, in my experience, gamers are by and large
a decent bunch, recognize that if no-one buys the games, sooner or later
there aren't going to be any more games, and can be relied upon to
police themselves.

Secondly, what happened to "innocent until proven guilty"? If someone
believes that a group are playing a game that no-one's paid for, the
onus should be on them to check (where "check" is the weak form of
"prove"). I really hate this approach that seems to becoming more and
more prevalent from content providers and the strong "IP" protection
camp that because *some* people *could* be copyright infringers, let's
assume that *everyone* *is* an infringer, and make it hard work for
legitimate customers to prove that they're not. (See the music, movie
and software industries ad inifinitum).

(Sorry, soapbox away now.)

That said, to make things clearer to everyone, what about a simple
convention? For any kind of open / pick-up gaming (e.g. shouts on the
'opponents wanted' section), could we suggest that the person starting
the game (or trying to) should own the game unless they explicitly state
otherwise?

So if you see "Looking for a game of 'Thing'", both "I don't know
'Thing', but it sounds interesting - want to teach me?" and "I'd like a
game" (because I've played it a few times before with other people but I
don't actually own it) are legitimate responses.

But the other way around, try for "I'm interested in 'Thing', but I'm
not sure enough if it's for me yet to buy it - anyone want to give me an
intro game?" rather than "Hey, anyone here play 'Thing'?" (because I
don't own it and I'd like to give it a try).

Existing groups of players who are already communicating with each other
privately, can, of course, use whatever means or conventions they see fit.

Thoughts, anyone?

Regards,
Tim.


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Where to get rules to games

Postby timpelican » October 11th, 2008, 8:38 am

Skorpio wrote:
Yeah, but I think for the most games it's necessary to own the
rulebooks, unless you know the rules very well. Describing the rules
to someone online means a lot of stress. Perhaps it's easier, if you
use VOIP.

Rulebooks for many games are available on-line - directly from the
publisher, in the case of more enlightened publishers. I see no issues
whatsoever with the players who don't own the game downloading those
rules to use during the game, as long as *someone* owns it.

I've done exactly the same thing face-to-face - in both directions - for
complex games where the game owner has pointed the players at the rules
to read before hand for a smoother game.

Regards,
Tim.


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Postby Peter Roberts » October 11th, 2008, 10:27 am

I concur with Tim's comments. Furthermore when I have bought games they are usually descibed on the box as "for 2 players" or even "for 2 to 6 players". I have never seen a game that states "for 2 players, but both players must own the game" or a game that states "for 2 players, but not using on line play".

I am intrigued with the comment that states "the official position" and would be interested in the answer to Tim's question "from which official of what exactly?"
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Postby IrishBouzouki » October 11th, 2008, 1:43 pm

I agree with you Tim, and I expect that most consumers do prefer a more enlightened customer-service approach to copyright enforcement and reward such with more product sales. I will buy GMT games at almost the drop of a hat because they support their product by supporting the customers that pay for it, I will never for the rest of my life play a single game on HexWar. And for that very reason.

But that does not remove the perfectly legal right that copyright holders do have to prevent distribution of their material, electronic or otherwise, by third parties.

And ask yourself... if it was not for the internet and email, like in the old days some of us remember, would you be able to play the game by mail without owning a copy? Would it be legal or right to photocopy the game components and mail them to the other player? Does that affect your opinion of the ethics, if not legality, involved in this question? (and yes ethics are just as or more important for the mirror reason that customer service is important)

[having typed all that, this is an old over-trod debate I am actually not really that interested in, so signing off of this thread at this point, sorry for sticking my nose in]
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Where to get rules to games

Postby timpelican » October 11th, 2008, 3:39 pm

IrishBouzouki wrote:

But that does not remove the perfectly legal right that copyright
holders do have to prevent distribution of their material, electronic
or otherwise, by third parties.

Absolutely - but be careful about what "their material" that they hold
copyright on is. The actual artwork on the board and counters are
copyright, as is the text of the rules. The concept of the game,
depending on your location, quite possibly isn't. The name of the game
isn't, but may be trademarked.

That was really my point about the copyright - the assumption from some
people that you can't make (or more relevantly, distribute) *anything*
related to the game, be that player aids, modules, or whatever, without
permission from the publisher because they "own" the game.

Not that it's not polite to ask, of course, and asking definitely helps
build that mutually-beneficial trusting relationship between companies
and their customers.

And ask yourself... if it was not for the internet and email, like in
the old days some of remember, would you be able to play the game by
mail without owning a copy? Would it be legal or right to photocopy
the game components and mail them to the other player? Does that
affect your opinion of the ethics, if not legality, involved in this
question? (and yes ethics are just as or more important for the
mirror reason that customer service is important)

Ethically, I would have no issues with providing photocopied rules of a
game I own to individuals that I know and trust, either in advance of a
face-to-face game or for use in a PBM / PBEM game. I would feel much
less comfortable putting a stack of such photocopies on the counter in a
game store with a note that people should help themselves, and then get
in touch if they'd like a game. (I suspect the store would object too!)

I think that's where things become a lot less clear once the Internet is
involved - there's less of a line between the two, and less of a cost /
effort disincentive for the latter.

A full set of copied components? I don't know... if you like the game
enough to go to that kind of effort, you probably ought to buy it. I've
got no objection to someone muddling through with a pencil and paper,
hand-drawn map, pennies for counters etc for a game or two (or three) to
see if they like it, and I wouldn't object to providing them with enough
info about what's in the box to do that.

Regards,
Tim.

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