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Re: Unsubscribe

Postby bsmith » February 22nd, 2008, 8:53 pm

Rindis wrote:
mkiefte wrote:On another note, the CSW VASSAL list appears to be largely inactive.
Is there a big divide between CSW readers and VASSAL?

I stop by ConSimWorld about once every five years, and leave it, frustrated, a half-hour later when I find they haven't done anything about the hopeless muddle that is their UI.


Hey don't knock ConSimWorld, it's the way-back machine of the war-gaming world! :lol:
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Postby uckelman » February 22nd, 2008, 8:57 pm

Thus spake "bsmith":
Rindis wrote:
mkiefte wrote:
On another note, the CSW VASSAL list appears to be largely inactive.
Is there a big divide between CSW readers and VASSAL?

I stop by ConSimWorld about once every five years, and leave it, frustrated
, a half-hour later when I find they haven't done anything about the hopeless
muddle that is their UI.


Hey don't knock ConSimWorld, it's the way-back machine of the war-gaming worl
d! [Laughing]

I check the VASSAL category there every morning, just in case someone
needs help...

--
J.

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Postby Brent Easton » February 25th, 2008, 10:42 pm

Or... it *might* be the reason there are only 18 using the mailing list...


Took me a while to get back to this one.

Yes, I would agree the main reason that there are only 18 people using the mailing list is because the overwhelming number of posts are from developers.

I quite like using the mailing list interface, but if I was not a developer, there is no way I would subscribe. Using your email filter is all very well, but I'm overloaded with spam as it is, why would I ask for more?

I would be interested to see the stats off how many people join the mailing list and then unsubscribe after a few days?

Cheers,
Brent.
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Postby bsmith » February 25th, 2008, 11:42 pm

You guys honestly still think the majority of people want to use mailing lists? You cannot be serious! Heck, even forums are dying with the advent of social networking. Any 16 year old will tell you e-mail is an old technology.

I'm totally astounded to constantly find the degree that developers think the rest of the world thinks like them! Although I've known it for years, it still makes me laugh out loud! But we need you guys to be like that, because it enables you to do such an excellent job.

Brent, the mailing list has crept ever so slowly from 10 users to 18, it has never gone over that number. In fact, there has been virtually no activity in there whatsoever, turn that thing off and the only people who are gonna notice are IT people lol

There's a big world out there guys, much bigger than our little IT bubble!
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Postby mkiefte » February 26th, 2008, 2:07 am

Hi B.,

I don't think you've addressed the problem below and I'm not sure I
even understand your message. I would be more than happy to use the
web interface, but there's one factor that prevents me from doing so:
How do I quickly find the posts that I haven't already read without
wading through what I've already seen? Is there even a way to do
this? Although the CSW interface is wildly unattractive, it handles
this quite nicely.

Nevertheless, it's clear that many users simply want to subscribe to
an e-mail list. How can we break up the forums into separate e-mail
lists so that people can subscribe to individual forums without
resorting to e-mail filters?

- M.

On 25/02/2008, bsmith <messages@forums.vassalengine.org> wrote:
You guys honestly still think the majority of people want to use mailing lists? You cannot be serious! Heck, even forums are dying with the advent of social networking. Any 16 year old will tell you e-mail is an old technology.

I'm totally astounded to constantly find the degree that developers think the rest of the world thinks like them! Although I've known it for years, it still makes me laugh out loud! But we need you guys to be like that, because it enables you to do such an excellent job.

Brent, the mailing list has crept ever so slowly from 10 users to 18, it has never gone over that number. In fact, there has been virtually no activity in there whatsoever, turn that thing off and the only people who are gonna notice are IT people lol

There's a big world out there guys, much bigger than our little IT bubble!

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Postby bsmith » February 26th, 2008, 2:28 am

Try this Michael, when you see the front page click "View posts since last visit". Really, it doesn't get any simpler.

Nevertheless, it's clear that many users simply want to subscribe to
an e-mail list. How can we break up the forums into separate e-mail
lists so that people can subscribe to individual forums without
resorting to e-mail filters?


Who are these "many users" Michael and what makes it so clear? You're the only person so far who has an issue, why can't you use an e-mail filters like I suggested?

I'm not doing any more work on this for only a handful of people, unless someone can prove conclusively that we really need it. So far all I'm seeing is a few developers who just kinda recon there are heaps of users out there who want a mailing list. But the facts point to entirely the opposite trend.
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Postby mkiefte » February 26th, 2008, 3:10 am

Okay, there are no new posts, so I can't check, but I've got a couple
of questions:

What if you don't read all of the messages on a given visit, will it
then skip those messages you missed when you next visit?

Is there a way for it to skip forums that your not interested in? For
example, right now the vast majority of new posts are developers.
What if you're just interested in opponents. It will always say new
messages even if none are for opponents, right? You mentioned e-mail
filters, but is there an equivalent for the web-based forums?

You're the only person so far who has an issue, why can't you use an e-mail filters like I suggested?

How did I get isolated in this discussion? Anyway, using an e-mail
filter is not really a solution, it's just a kludge. I don't mind
doing it, but I'm not sure I'd expect the average person to set up
e-mail filters just to get at the opponents wanted list. It wouldn't
even be so straightforward. It's easy enough for me, because I'm
filtering out the opponents wanted, but it would certainly take more
effort to do the opposite.

- M.

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Re: Unsubscribe

Postby bsmith » February 26th, 2008, 3:29 am

What if you don't read all of the messages on a given visit, will it
then skip those messages you missed when you next visit?


Probably, it's best to read them in one go.

Is there a way for it to skip forums that your not interested in? For
example, right now the vast majority of new posts are developers.
What if you're just interested in opponents. It will always say new
messages even if none are for opponents, right? You mentioned e-mail
filters, but is there an equivalent for the web-based forums?


Unfortunately, like everything in life, it's not perfect. You do need to make some effort. If a user only wanted to view Opponents Wanted then he would manually go into that section and read the threads. He would not use "View all posts since last visit".

How did I get isolated in this discussion?


Well, you are the original poster of this thread, you started the topic! :)

I don't mind
doing it, but I'm not sure I'd expect the average person to set up
e-mail filters just to get at the opponents wanted list. It wouldn't
even be so straightforward. It's easy enough for me, because I'm
filtering out the opponents wanted, but it would certainly take more
effort to do the opposite.


Exactly. Thankfully the average person does not want to use an e-mail list so there's no problem.
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Postby tbyrne » February 26th, 2008, 3:54 am

On 2/25/08, Michael Kiefte wrote:
How did I get isolated in this discussion?

Don't worry, you aren't alone. There are others who see the value in
having a choice of viewing via email or a web-based forum. The
different ways have different advantages, and won't appeal to
everyone.

For example, the only way I'm able to keep up with whats going on is
via my mobile device. Viewing the forum via my mobile device sucks.
And if the email option wasn't available, well, I just wouldn't be
able to read when I have the chance (which means I just wouldn't).
The web-based solution doesn't work for mobile devices.

Ben, I know you think everyone else in the world but the developers
thinks only one way, but its not the case. The better approach would
be to extend the functionality to include as many people's preference
as possible. Moving to the forums was a step in this direction as
there are no doubt many people that may prefer this option. But the
current mail option is incomplete, leaving those who prefer that
method less than satisfied.

I know you sort-of think, oh well no point in doing it for a small
number of people. I'm glad the VASSAL developers don't take that
position when obscure but doable features are requested. Plus, I
think there could be greater appeal than you think. Imagine if we had
an "announcements" forum, and you could subscribe to that by email.
Then those who wanted announcements delivered to their inbox could
stay up-to-date, and could use the forums when they were looking for
an opponent. The current operation of the mail list doesn't allow for
this hybrid approach.

Anyhow, for the now, I'll just need to ignore the stuff that I'm not
interested in. :(

Another option I imagine people would be interested in is RSS. I
don't seem to find the RSS feeds for the forums. Similar to email,
RSS would be most useful if the feeds were split by forum.

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Re: Unsubscribe

Postby bsmith » February 26th, 2008, 5:45 am

tbyrne wrote:I know you sort-of think, oh well no point in doing it for a small number of people. I'm glad the VASSAL developers don't take that
position when obscure but doable features are requested.


There's a big difference here. I could in fact end up putting 48 hours of work into the forum to satisfy 5 users... ever. But obscure features in Vassal can add up to modules being released which hundreds will play. Really what you're asking me to do could end up being that simple, up to 20 people are going to benefit and still... not everyone will be happy, because you can never make everyone happy. Where do you draw the line and say "ok, that's enough"?

Tim if you really think this is worth the time then you're more than welcome to work on the forum software yourself as long as you're prepared to do the ongoing support. I myself cannot see the time vs benefit value here. I want to help out lots of people, I'm not interesting in helping two or three whiners. Coz that's all this is.
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Postby bsmith » February 26th, 2008, 5:46 am

I'll fix the RSS stuff soon.
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Postby Brent Easton » February 26th, 2008, 6:08 am

There's a big difference here. I could in fact end up putting 48 hours of
work into the forum to satisfy 5 users... ever.

Christ, 48 hours of work to satisfy only 5 users. You poor thing. I have invested thousands of hours into developing Vassal as have the other develpers. I find your attitude completely appalling.


But obscure features in
Vassal can add up to modules being released which hundreds will play.
Really what you're asking me to do could end up being that simple, up to
20 people are going to benefit and still... not everyone will be happy,
because you can never make everyone happy. Where do you draw the line and
say "ok, that's enough"?


Poor attitude Ben.


Tim if you really think this is worth the time then you're more than
welcome to work on the forum software yourself as long as you're prepared
to do the ongoing support. I myself cannot see the time vs benefit value
here. I want to help out lots of people, I'm not interesting in helping
two or three whiners. Coz that's all this is.

Ben, I find you unnecessarily rude, argumentative and a complete PITA. I am now in the process of implementing my email filter as you suggested to filter out your forum messages. I'm really sick and tired of listening to you. I am definitely not interested in anything you have to say, or any improvements you may feel VASSAL requires. Bye Bye.

Regards,
Brent.




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Re: Unsubscribe

Postby bsmith » February 26th, 2008, 6:15 am

Brent Easton wrote:Christ, 48 hours of work to satisfy only 5 users. You poor thing. I have invested thousands of hours into developing Vassal as have the other develpers. I find your attitude completely appalling.


Fair enough, I accept that. But my goal is to make Vassal more accessible to lots of people, not to concentrate on minor issues which do not improve circulation. You choose to spent 000s of hours developing Vassal, that's great.

Poor attitude Ben.


I'm not here to make friends or be liked. I just want to make Vassal better.

I'm really sick and tired of listening to you.


I'm sorry that you've had to resort to personal attacks.
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Postby Brent Easton » February 26th, 2008, 6:25 am

I'm sorry that you've had to resort to personal attacks.


I consider you calling the 3 developers whiners as being personal attacks Ben, so I consider that you are completely responsible for starting the slanging match.

I fail to understand how you consider insulting the developers will do anything to improve Vassal????? I just don't understand what you are trying to achieve?

I do apologize for letting my emotions get out of hand there.

That's it for me. I suggest we close this topic.
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Postby bsmith » February 26th, 2008, 6:33 am

I am responsible; Apology to all. I've been stepping on lots of toes, I should know that Vassal is what it is because of the effort you guys put in. I let it get out of hand so I'm sorry about that. I think I was frustrated the topic came up because I had convinced myself the forum had been settled.

But look, you guys obviously do feel strongly about the filtering issue, and I need to be more receptive to developer's needs.

Am I correct in saying a fix would be to create a separate mailing list for each forum section?
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